{"id":1807,"date":"2008-09-21T13:09:00","date_gmt":"2008-09-21T17:09:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=1807"},"modified":"2021-06-06T13:39:17","modified_gmt":"2021-06-06T18:39:17","slug":"skeptical-conversations-part-x-coming","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=1807","title":{"rendered":"Skeptical conversations, part X: The coming kingdom of God"},"content":{"rendered":"

Continuing the conversation . . . Parts I-IX <\/span>here<\/a>. Also, I’ve updated the <\/span>credo Wordle post<\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>I believe it was Churchill who once observed that democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others; I think the same applies to the presbyterian form. Not much of an accolade? Perhaps. But it\u2019s still a human structure after all, and still human beings running it, and so nothing you can do is going to make it perfect. Really, to form a perfect government you need to find a perfect person and give them all the authority. The further you get from that, the higher the minimal degree of imperfection in the system\u2014and the less damage any one person\u2019s sin can do, and the more chances there are to fix whatever problems may arise.<\/p>\n

You see, there\u2019s this split view of the church, in a way. You look at it from one angle and it\u2019s a group of recovering sinners who sometimes do things beautifully and sometimes make big mistakes; and it\u2019s terribly easy, down in the trenches of the day-to-day, to lose sight of the big picture and forget that we\u2019re all headed somewhere. But then sometimes it\u2019s possible to step back and look at the bigger picture, to get a sense of the church mystical, \u201cspread out through space and time and terrible as an army with banners,\u201d as I think Lewis has the demon Screwtape say. We need that change of perspective; if nothing else, we need it for the reminder that we are a pilgrim people, a church on the way, that we are headed for the kingdom of God.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>This is the second time you\u2019ve said that. Are you ready to explain yourself now?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>Yes. The kingdom of God refers to the time when he will reign unchallenged over everything (it doesn\u2019t mean \u201ckingdom\u201d in the sense that we usually use it, as a defined land with borders). It\u2019s a future reality, as clearly we don\u2019t see God as the unchallenged ruler in this world, but at the same time much of what Jesus taught indicates that the kingdom of God had come into the world through his presence and work\u2014so, for instance, he says, \u201cThe kingdom of God is among you.\u201d It\u2019s both already here and not yet here.<\/p>\n

The best analogy is the one used by Oscar Cullman, a Swiss NT scholar, who compared the coming of the kingdom to the Allied victory in WW II and the difference between D-Day and V-E Day: with the success of the Normandy invasion, the war was really over; Hitler would have been wisest to sue for peace at that point. But he refused to give up even though all was inevitably lost, and so the war continued. The war was won on June 6, 1944, but that victory was not consummated until May 8, 1945\u2014almost a year later. In the same way, the kingdom of God arrived in the person of Christ and the decisive battle was won in his death and resurrection, but the victory has yet to be consummated; that is still in the future, because though the enemy is beaten, he will fight for as long as he possibly can.<\/p>\n

The church is a sign of the kingdom of God, a sign that the future kingdom has broken into the present, because the church is a body of people who have stepped outside this world order and are taking our marching orders from the future.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>Would you call the church a \u201cnew world order,\u201d then?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>Let\u2019s not go there. As I was saying, the proclamation of the message that Jesus is Lord produces a response, which is the work of the Holy Spirit, and that creates the covenant community of the church; the church then draws its purpose from the activity of God in the world, in the ways I talked about earlier. It is the company of those who bow in the present to the kingdom of God, and so looks fundamentally to the future when that kingdom will come in full. This is important, for a couple of reasons. One, it\u2019s the reason why we are called to live holy lives.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>Give things up now, get the reward later?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>In part, but not just that. The reward, after all, is the life of the kingdom, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re called to live now. It\u2019s harder, of course, because living that life now is countercultural, it\u2019s in conflict with the system of this world, which is under the Devil\u2019s thumb; but part of the reward is coming to know the joys of the life of the kingdom in this world. That\u2019s one reason why it\u2019s important to keep our eye on the goal. The other is that the kingdom is our promise and our hope in times of suffering and injustice. We have the promise that all will be made right, that God sees our suffering and that it will all be worth it in the end.<\/p>\n

A third point is that the hope of the kingdom sets us free from the fear of death, because we know that death is not the end; rather, death is the point at which we pass from this world into eternity.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>If I understood you correctly, you don\u2019t believe that the soul is immortal and separate from the body. If that\u2019s so, and if death is the point of transition into eternal existence, why aren\u2019t people resurrected as soon as they die? I\u2019ve been to a few funerals, and there\u2019s been a body at every one of them.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>We aren\u2019t resurrected individually; rather, all those who die in Christ will be resurrected together at the Second Coming.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>So if you pass into eternity at death but aren\u2019t resurrected until later, what are you in between?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>Outside of time. From the perspective of God\u2019s eternity, there is no wait in between.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>So you die at one point in time, are resurrected at another point, but those are the same point.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>I\u2019m not sure I\u2019d put it exactly that way (though maybe I would); I\u2019m just saying that it seems to me that from a perspective outside our time stream, there isn\u2019t a problem. Luther taught the doctrine of \u201csoul sleep,\u201d that the soul sleeps in between death and resurrection, but I really don\u2019t think that\u2019s necessary. I should note, by the way, that the resurrection body is a new, improved body\u2014it isn\u2019t that God will reconstitute the atoms that made up our body, but rather that our bodies will be made new, just as our lives have been made new and as all creation will be made new.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>If I may change the subject, what about those horrible popular novels\u2014the \u201cLeft Behind\u201d series and others of that sort?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>Ever read any of them?<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>The \u201cLeft Behind\u201d books? I picked one up in a bookstore, out of curiosity, and read a bit. They make Grisham look like Dostoevsky.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>That\u2019s too harsh, I think, but I\u2019ll grant they\u2019re far from great literature. That\u2019s not really my concern with them, though. I think those books, and others that offer a similar view of the last days, are based on rather poor exegesis\u2014an overly concrete reading of Revelation and other texts that really doesn\u2019t try too hard to understand these texts in their proper context\u2014and as such, I think they offer a rather distorted view of the end times. That\u2019s not necessarily a criticism of the broader theological position they hold, which is a form of premillennialism, but of the way they present it.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>What\u2019s \u201cpremillennialism\u201d?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>There are three basic positions dealing with the chronology of the end times, and they are distinguished by their understanding of the millennium, which is referenced in Revelation 20:4-6: \u201cI saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given au\u00adthority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.\u201d<\/p>\n

One position is postmillennialism, which is sort of the theological equivalent of a belief in progress: the church is going to succeed in converting the world to Christ; peace will prevail, evil will be banished, and the reign of Christ in the hearts of humanity will be universal. After a while\u2014the thousand years may be literal or symbolic\u2014Satan will launch a revolt, and Jesus will return, squash him forever, judge humanity, and reign unchallenged from then on. Besides being unduly optimistic, this view doesn\u2019t fit Jesus\u2019 own statements about the last days, which indicate that events on earth will not be going well at the time of his return.<\/p>\n

Another position is amillennialism, which understands the millennium symbolically; there will not be a literal reign of Christ on earth. This is certainly reasonable, as Revelation is loaded with symbolic language, but there does not seem to be any consensus as to what that thousand-year reign might symbolize\u2014and to me, none of the answers offered seems very convincing. More problematically, the amillennial interpretation runs into trouble when this passage references \u201cthe <\/span>first<\/em> <\/span>resurrection,\u201d since that is understood to happen before the millennium. Since every amillennial view understands the millennium as relating in some way to the period between Christ\u2019s first coming and his second, \u201cthe first resurrection\u201d can\u2019t refer to the physical resurrection believers will experience when Christ comes again, and thus must be a spiritual resurrection. This interpretation seems to require straining the text beyond the normal bounds of interpretation to make it fit a pre-determined theory, and that is a problematic thing to do.<\/p>\n

The most natural interpretation of Revelation 20 seems to be the premillennial one. Premillennialism understands the millennium as a literal thousand-year reign of Christ on earth, but unlike the postmillennial view it holds that the church will not succeed in converting the world. Rather, the world will grow worse, and ultimately there will be a period of great tribulation, after which Christ will come, those who have been faithful to him will be raised from the dead, and he will reign on earth for a period\u2014whether a literal thousand years or not, I don\u2019t know. At some point, however, Satan will mount one last attack and be defeated forever. At that point will come the second resurrection, of those who have not yet been raised from the dead, and the final judgment.<\/p>\n

The \u201cLeft Behind\u201d books are premillennial in their understanding. They also posit the theory that Jesus will return again twice: once at the beginning of the period of great tribulation to take his people out of the world (this is called the rapture), and once at its end to wrap things up. In support of their doctrine of the rapture, those who take this position cite 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: \u201cFor the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.\u201d I think, though, that this is wishful thinking by Christians who don\u2019t want to suffer. Nowhere in Scripture does it suggest that Jesus will return twice, for one thing; for another, this passage just says that we will meet Christ in the air\u2014it does not say that we will leave with him. It could mean that we\u2019ll meet him in the air as a welcoming party for his arrival on earth.<\/p>\n

Rather, I believe that the church will go through the great tribulation, because it makes no sense to me that God would remove his people from the earth when they would be needed most, and that Christ will return again, once, at the end of that period. He will preserve his people <\/span>in the midst of<\/em> <\/span>that period, just as he preserved Noah\u2019s family through the great flood, but he will not remove the church. When Jesus returns, we will meet him in the air, yes\u2014but as a welcoming party, and we will return to earth in his train.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>I think I don\u2019t know enough to make sense of the alternatives\u2014though as you described postmillennialism, it sounded rather implausible to me. It seems that the central thrust of your position is that life will get very bad, but the church will win through.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>Yes, and I think that\u2019s the most important point. The details draw enough argument that it\u2019s necessary to articulate a position on end-times chronology, and some of them really do make a difference\u2014between postmillennialism and premillennialism, for instance, you have the difference between optimism and a more pessimistic view; and yet you also have the belief in a rapture, which allows some premillennialists to consign the rest of the world to the tribulation and not worry about it for themselves. That makes a difference, too. But the most basic point is just what you\u2019ve said: the promise that if we are faithful to Christ, he is faithful to us and will bring us through all right by the power of his Spirit.<\/p>\n

And then at the end comes the Last Judgment. I said earlier that I believe in Hell, so I\u2019m not really saying anything new here. All that we have ever done and said and thought will be open for all to see, and we will be called to account for all of it; and then the choice we made in this life, for or against God, will be fixed into eternity. Those who have been faithful to God will be with him in the new creation, while those who have rejected him will be sent to Hell.<\/p>\n

As C. S. Lewis put it in his book <\/span>The Great Divorce<\/em>, there are only two kinds of people in this world: those who say to God, \u201cYour will be done,\u201d and those to whom God finally says, \u201cYour<\/em>will be done.\u201d Hell will be a place of God\u2019s wrath, but at its core it will be the place of exclusion from fellowship with God. It will not be, however, a place where Satan reigns and God is not present; God will be just as present there as anywhere else in creation\u2014but there will be no fellowship with him. Those in Hell will be in a state of complete estrangement and alienation from him, themselves and each other, and so the presence and love of God will be not a joy but a stabbing agony. God does not desire this for anyone, but it is his final act of respect for human freedom to allow those who reject him to have for eternity what they chose in this life.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>But God is in control of that choice.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>Yes, because he chose whom he would save. But those who reject him still do so of their own free will. God is sovereign in everything, but human beings are still free to choose as we will.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>If God is sovereign in everything, why doesn\u2019t everyone choose to serve him?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>Do you want to change your mind and make that choice?<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>No.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>Then how can you ask the question?<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> <\/span>I\u2019ll have to think about that.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> <\/span>While you\u2019re thinking, one last point. I said earlier that I don\u2019t exactly believe we go to Heaven. That\u2019s because biblically we don\u2019t leave this world for a different and better place; rather, the biblical picture is that this world <\/span>becomes<\/em> <\/span>the different and better place. Once all this is accomplished, God will create the heavens and earth anew, as they should have been, with Jerusalem, the city of his temple, made new at their center. We will live eternally in the new creation, and nothing of the goodness of this world will be lost\u2014not even that which is now lost.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Continuing the conversation . . . Parts I-IX here. Also, I’ve updated the credo Wordle post. R: I believe it was Churchill who once observed that democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others; I think the same applies to the presbyterian form. Not much of an accolade? Perhaps. But it\u2019s still a human […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":7625,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"nf_dc_page":"","_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[116,65,76],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1807","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-credo","category-religion-and-theology","category-scripture","post-with-thumbnail","post-with-thumbnail-large"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p6R3Ax-t9","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":1496,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=1496","url_meta":{"origin":1807,"position":0},"title":"Credo ut intelligam","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"9 February 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"With Anselm of Canterbury, I believe so that I may understand\u2014because I understand that that's just how it works, for everybody, whether they know it or not. \u00a0(This is part of the reason wrong belief is important: \u00a0it produces wrong understanding.) \u00a0As a candidate for ordination as a pastor in\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Credo"","block_context":{"text":"Credo","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?cat=116"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1901,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=1901","url_meta":{"origin":1807,"position":1},"title":"Skeptical conversations, part IX: The church and its mission","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"22 August 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"Continuing the conversation . . . Parts I-VIII\u00a0here. Also, I've updated the\u00a0credo Wordle post. R:\u00a0The church, then, is the people of God; and specifically, we are the people God has brought out of slavery to sin. Just as he led the people of Israel on the Exodus, out of slavery\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Church and ministry"","block_context":{"text":"Church and ministry","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?cat=86"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/08\/Credo-post-9-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/08\/Credo-post-9-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/08\/Credo-post-9-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/08\/Credo-post-9-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/08\/Credo-post-9-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":1996,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=1996","url_meta":{"origin":1807,"position":2},"title":"Cloud of belief","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"23 June 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"I took my first credo post and ran it through Wordle\u2014this is pretty cool, I think. (Sorry it\u2019s so small; click on it to see it bigger.) I think I'll keep adding them in, and see how it all looks. Edit, 6\/6\/21:\u00a0 Wordle is defunct, so I made new ones\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Credo"","block_context":{"text":"Credo","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?cat=116"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/06\/Credo-full-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/06\/Credo-full-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/06\/Credo-full-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/06\/Credo-full-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/06\/Credo-full-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":2160,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=2160","url_meta":{"origin":1807,"position":3},"title":"Skeptical conversations, part III: The problem of evil","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"19 March 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"From the consideration of who God is and what he's like, the third section of my credo raises (and begins to address) the problem of evil.Update: read the first section here, the second section here, and the third section here.","rel":"","context":"In "Religion and theology"","block_context":{"text":"Religion and theology","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?cat=65"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":2186,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=2186","url_meta":{"origin":1807,"position":4},"title":"Skeptical conversations, part II: What is God like?","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"28 February 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"The second section of my credo deals with the character and attributes of God\u2014what God is like\u2014including some further discussion of the doctrine of the Trinity. (The link to the first section can be found here.)Update: read the first section here and the second section here.","rel":"","context":"In "Religion and theology"","block_context":{"text":"Religion and theology","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?cat=65"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":2205,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=2205","url_meta":{"origin":1807,"position":5},"title":"Skeptical conversations, part I: Who is God?","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"12 February 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"As part of my ordination process some years ago, I was required to write a credo\u2014a statement of my beliefs. 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