{"id":2126,"date":"2008-04-10T02:17:00","date_gmt":"2008-04-10T06:17:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=2126"},"modified":"2015-10-24T10:28:02","modified_gmt":"2015-10-24T14:28:02","slug":"skeptical-conversations-part-i-who-is","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=2126","title":{"rendered":"Skeptical conversations, part I: Who is God? (full post)"},"content":{"rendered":"

I owe my wife<\/a> another debt of gratitude, which is no surprise to any of you who know us. I’ve been trying for a while now to figure out how to make expandable post summaries work on this blog, but Blogger’s FAQ didn’t seem to work. Turns out it’s a consequence of the switch to New Blogger, and they haven’t caught up with the change. So, my wife went hunting and found Hackosphere<\/em>, a blog which (among other things) provides the necessary instructions and code<\/a>\u2014and we’re in business. I’ve already tested the code on the longest post I’ve written to date<\/a>, and it worked perfectly.<\/p>\n

In celebration, I’m going to repost my credo posts, this time with the credo actually in the post, below the jump. As I noted earlier, this is something I wrote as part of my ordination process; I wound up writing it as a conversation between myself and a friend of mine who was an avowed agnostic. This conversation is of course my own creation, but a lot of it comes out of discussions we actually had. (Again, these chunks are quite long\u2014in MS Word, around seven double-spaced pages of 12-point Times New Roman, somewhere shy of 2,000 words.)<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been meaning to ask you something for a while now. As we\u2019ve discussed baseball and life and other minor issues, your Christianity has come up now and again, but we\u2019ve never pursued that issue very far for its own sake; and it has always puzzled me why intelligent, educated people believe in God. That just doesn\u2019t make sense to me, and I\u2019ve always wanted to ask why that should be. The problem is, you have to be careful who you ask that sort of question, since it\u2019s a very personal matter; but you seem to me to be someone who wouldn\u2019t mind. So tell me, why do<\/em> you believe in God?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> What do you mean?<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> For one thing, your belief seems so unnecessary. Since Darwin, we have no need of that hypothesis, as someone said. More importantly, though, if you don\u2019t need him to prop the system up, how can you believe in him? The Christian God, so far as I can tell, wants to restrict your freedom to think and your freedom to act; he wants to rule certain lines of thought and opportunities for self-expression and self-fulfillment out of court before you ever get the chance to consider them. It seems to me that all believing in God does is narrow your life and your mind. Why on earth would you? Is what you get in return really worth it?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Do you really want answers to your questions, or are they just rhetorical?<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> If you have good answers to offer, I\u2019m interested to hear them, if that\u2019s what you mean.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Have a couple hours you aren\u2019t using? Because I think the most basic thing underlying your question is that you don\u2019t really know what I believe; if you want an answer with any depth, you need to understand where I\u2019m coming from before you understand why.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> Well, I have the time, and I\u2019ll admit I have more to learn about Christianity; but I don\u2019t have a great deal of patience with theology, \u201chow many angels can dance on the head of a pin\u201d and that sort of thing.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Theology gets a bad rap, unfortunately, from people who associate it with those kind of abstracted discussions. But really, theology is a pretty practical thing. It\u2019s just whatever you believe about God; a friend of mine calls theology the science of God, and I think that\u2019s a good way to put it. If you don\u2019t believe there is a God, that\u2019s the center of your theology\u2014or atheology, I suppose\u2014and then whatever your belief that there is no God does to your view of the world would be part of your theology as well. If you say that because there is no God, we human beings need to work our hardest to take care of each other and the world because we\u2019re on our own, we\u2019re all there is\u2013\u2013<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> I do believe that, you know that.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Yes, I do\u2014well, that\u2019s a theological statement. That\u2019s your theology, or part of it.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> I hadn\u2019t thought of my beliefs in those terms before.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> And mine begins at a very different place, with the belief that there is a God, and a very particular God at that, and that God stands in relation to us and to the world in a very particular way. Specifically, it begins with the belief that God created all of everything, and that as a result he is God over all of everything.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> Interesting. You say he\u2019s God because he created everything, not just because he wants to play God.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Right. Think of a novel for a minute. The person who wrote the novel created those characters\u2013\u2013<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> Even if they only cut them out of cardboard.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> True. But the author created those characters, wrote every word that comes out of their mouths, set every decision they make, and determined how the book would end. You might say that the author was God to those characters. But does that make that author any more Godlike anywhere else? No. His authority, or hers, comes from the fact of authorship. In the same way, only in a much bigger way, God has authority over everything and is in control of everything that happens because he is the author of everything.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> I\u2019d never noticed that word linkage before. But are you suggesting that God might be just a member of a race of gods?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Umm, no. In fact, that\u2019s an important point. God is not one of a race of anything; he is unique. One of the names for him in the Bible is \u201cI Am\u201d\u2014as it\u2019s rendered in Greek, \u201cThe One Who Is.\u201d He is the one who was not created by any other, and he is the source of everything else that exists. He didn\u2019t come from anywhere; he has always been.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> So the universe started out with God, surrounded by nothing. How can that be? That doesn\u2019t make any sense. God must have come from somewhere, and he must have been someplace.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> But then where did that place come from? Who made it? Who came before God, and where did they come from? No, if you stop and think about where everything came from, you only have two possible answers: either the universe has always existed, in some form or another, in which case it has no beginning or end, or there was a point in time when the universe did not exist and there was nothing\u2014in which case there must have been someone there to create it out of nothing, and that someone must have always existed, without beginning or end; and we can argue back and forth, but we can\u2019t wrap our minds around either possibility. Either way, our minds aren\u2019t that big.<\/p>\n

The point I\u2019m trying to make is that our relationship to God begins with the fact that he created us, and the whole world in which we live. Wait, I can see you wanting to argue that point, but if we head off on the whole Darwin-evolutionism-creationism argument, we\u2019ll never come back to your question. That\u2019s an argument for another hour. I believe, for reasons both biblical and, yes, scientific, that God created all that is and as such has both complete authority and complete power over all that is. Having said that, you hit the question: who is this God?<\/p>\n

First and foremost, he is triune\u2014three in one.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> Ahh, the Trinity. I never have understood that.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s partly because it isn\u2019t all that understandable by our limited minds. We do the best we can to explain the Trinity and understand how God can be both three and one, but in the end it\u2019s a mystery.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> Isn\u2019t that just like a Christian. You get hit with a question you can\u2019t answer, you just say, \u201cIt\u2019s a mystery.\u201d<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> It makes sense, though. We are limited creatures, after all; if God is big enough to be God over the whole universe, wouldn\u2019t you expect him to be too big for us to completely understand? And if he were small enough for us to wrap our minds around, would he still be big enough to be God?<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> I\u2019ll have to think about that.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Anyway, the doctrine of the Trinity is central to our understanding of God, for a lot of reasons, so it\u2019s essential to come to some understanding of it. I like the way Stan Grenz, one of my professors, explains this doctrine in one of his books. He says that the doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in four statements: \u201cGod is one,\u201d \u201cGod is three,\u201d \u201cGod is a diversity,\u201d and \u201cGod is a unity.\u201d<\/p>\n

First and most basic, God is one. We worship only one God, not many, and we assert that there are no others. But second, God is three: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This isn\u2019t just how we perceive him, it\u2019s how he is; the one being of God exists in three distinct persons.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> That doesn\u2019t make any sense.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Like I said, our minds aren\u2019t big enough to understand it. But then, you\u2019re an educated man, you have a solid understanding of science for a non-scientist, right?<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> Yes, but I don\u2019t see your point.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> You know what physicists have determined about the nature of light, that light is both a wave and a particle? Can you explain how that can be, since the two seem to be mutually exclusive?<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> No, I can\u2019t, but that\u2019s what the evidence says. And yes, I see where you\u2019re going; I\u2019ll grant that the nature of light presents similar problems to the doctrine of the Trinity.<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Reality is bigger than we are; someday we may be able collectively to understand how everything in the world fits together, but even then no one person will be able to grasp more than a small part of that understanding. And it\u2019s entirely possible that we will never fully understand the nature of light, or quantum mechanics, or other such ques\u00adtions. But whether we do or not, God will still remain orders of magnitude greater than his creation in which we live, too great for us to control.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> Control?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Knowledge is power, right? I think the reason we aren\u2019t content with a God we can\u2019t fully understand, analyze, and describe in comprehensible terms is that any such God is beyond our ability to predict and control. That\u2019s much of the drive behind the hard sciences, after all\u2014the desire to reduce all the mysteries of the universe to things we can identify, label, explain, and control. I\u2019d say it\u2019s most of the drive behind psychology, the desire to extend our control over ourselves and others so that we can fix whatever we decide is broken. But if God remains beyond our understanding, he\u2019s a threat, because we can\u2019t control him\u2014we can\u2019t predict what he\u2019ll do next.<\/p>\n

A:<\/strong> Fine; point taken. Back to the subject, please?<\/p>\n

R:<\/strong> Sorry for the digression. God is one; God is three. He is one being; he is three persons. It\u2019s important to keep those in balance. Sometimes those of us in the Western church\u2014Catholics and Protestants\u2014tend to talk as if \u201cGod\u201d is a single person, the \u201creal\u201d person above the three members of the Trinity. I knew a man in my denomination, a candidate for ordination like me, who rejected the doctrine of the Trinity for just this reason: he asked, \u201cIf there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then who is \u2018God\u2019?\u201d The answer is that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons, but he couldn\u2019t find that balance; he concluded that \u201cGod\u201d must be a fourth person and rejected the doctrine of the Trinity as a result.<\/p>\n

Anyway, God is a diversity, and he is also a unity; you might say that God is unity in diversity. The Father, Son and Spirit are three different, distinct persons, and they fulfill different roles, but at the same time they are a unity. They have different functions, but every act involves all three, and they are one in being; they are utterly united in love. This is why John can say in 1 John 4 that \u201cGod is love,\u201d because in the very being of God, the Father, Son and Spirit are and have always been in relationship, loving each other, dedicated to each other. It is that love between them which is the central element of God\u2019s nature and character, and it is that love which drives everything he does.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

I owe my wife another debt of gratitude, which is no surprise to any of you who know us. I’ve been trying for a while now to figure out how to make expandable post summaries work on this blog, but Blogger’s FAQ didn’t seem to work. Turns out it’s a consequence of the switch to […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"nf_dc_page":"","_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[116,65,76],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-2126","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-credo","category-religion-and-theology","category-scripture"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p6R3Ax-yi","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":2205,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=2205","url_meta":{"origin":2126,"position":0},"title":"Skeptical conversations, part I: Who is God?","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"12 February 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"As part of my ordination process some years ago, I was required to write a credo\u2014a statement of my beliefs. I wound up, for various reasons, writing it as a conversation between myself and a friend of mine who was an avowed agnostic; some of it came out of actual\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Religion and theology"","block_context":{"text":"Religion and theology","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?cat=65"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1496,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=1496","url_meta":{"origin":2126,"position":1},"title":"Credo ut intelligam","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"9 February 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"With Anselm of Canterbury, I believe so that I may understand\u2014because I understand that that's just how it works, for everybody, whether they know it or not. \u00a0(This is part of the reason wrong belief is important: \u00a0it produces wrong understanding.) \u00a0As a candidate for ordination as a pastor in\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Credo"","block_context":{"text":"Credo","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?cat=116"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1996,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=1996","url_meta":{"origin":2126,"position":2},"title":"Cloud of belief","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"23 June 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"I took my first credo post and ran it through Wordle\u2014this is pretty cool, I think. (Sorry it\u2019s so small; click on it to see it bigger.) I think I'll keep adding them in, and see how it all looks. Edit, 6\/6\/21:\u00a0 Wordle is defunct, so I made new ones\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Credo"","block_context":{"text":"Credo","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?cat=116"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/06\/Credo-full-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/06\/Credo-full-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/06\/Credo-full-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/06\/Credo-full-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/rjaharrison.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2008\/06\/Credo-full-scaled.jpg?fit=1200%2C633&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":2160,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=2160","url_meta":{"origin":2126,"position":3},"title":"Skeptical conversations, part III: The problem of evil","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"19 March 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"From the consideration of who God is and what he's like, the third section of my credo raises (and begins to address) the problem of evil.Update: read the first section here, the second section here, and the third section here.","rel":"","context":"In "Religion and theology"","block_context":{"text":"Religion and theology","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?cat=65"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":2186,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=2186","url_meta":{"origin":2126,"position":4},"title":"Skeptical conversations, part II: What is God like?","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"28 February 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"The second section of my credo deals with the character and attributes of God\u2014what God is like\u2014including some further discussion of the doctrine of the Trinity. (The link to the first section can be found here.)Update: read the first section here and the second section here.","rel":"","context":"In "Religion and theology"","block_context":{"text":"Religion and theology","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?cat=65"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":904,"url":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?p=904","url_meta":{"origin":2126,"position":5},"title":"On this blog in history: May 14-31, 2008","author":"Rob Harrison","date":"17 February 2010","format":false,"excerpt":"Explanations aren't excuses A brief note on the tragedy of Burma and those who would try to justify it. Church as a missional community The people of God are identified and defined by our destination. Skeptical conversations, part V: The person and work of Jesus This is the section of\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Retrospective"","block_context":{"text":"Retrospective","link":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/?cat=82"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2126","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=2126"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2126\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":5626,"href":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2126\/revisions\/5626"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=2126"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=2126"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/rjaharrison.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=2126"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}