In the comments on my post on worship and atheism, FVThinker is trying to argue (among other things) that “all the conflicting stories re: his resurrection” constitute sufficient reason to deny the Resurrection of Christ. Now, in the first place, I deny the assertion, which is just one more tired leftover from liberal German scholarship of a century and more ago; but let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that we grant the point. Does this in fact constitute a compelling argument against the historicity of the Resurrection?No, it doesn’t. To understand why, consider a more recent historical incident, the San Francisco earthquake of 1906. If you’ve read Simon Winchester’s excellent book A Crack in the Edge of the World: America and the Great California Earthquake of 1906, then you probably remember that in the Prologue, Winchester quotes from five eyewitness accounts of the quake. Consider the following.
At the precise moment when the members of this quintet—three of them very distinguished men of science and two others of relatively modest social standing—were undertaking their very mundane activities . . . it was twelve minutes after five o’clock in the morning.However, this was a matter of provable fact only for the Englishman, so far as the record relates. His name was George Davidson, and he, like his fellow scientists, wrote about the event that was to follow with a certain icy detachment. He took care to mark the time that he first noticed something happening: Suddenly and without warning his room, his house, and the very land all was standing upon began to shake, with a great, ever-increasing, and uncontrollable violence.It was, he knew full well, an earthquake.It came, he later reported,
from north to south, and the only description I am able to give of its effect is that it seemed like a terrier shaking a rat. I was in bed, but was awakened by the first shock. I began to count the seconds as I went towards the table where my watch was, being able through much practice closely to approximate the time in that manner. The shock came at 5.12 o’clock. The first sixty seconds were the most severe. From that time on it decreased gradually for about thirty seconds. There was then the slightest perceptible lull. Then the shock continued for sixty seconds longer, being slighter in degree in this minute than in any part of the preceding minute and a half. There were two slight shocks afterwards which I did not time.
Professor Davidson must have been as terrified as anyone, but he was a man trained to observe, and he knew in an instant what was taking place. . . . the first full series of hard shocks, say his notes, lasted until 5h 13m 00s. The shocks were slightly less from that point until 5h 13m 30s, then there was a slight lull, and by 5h 14m 30s all was quiet again. . . . The official report on the earthquake said, in a tone that brooked no dispute, “We shall accept Professor Davidson’s time as the most accurate obtainable for San Francisco.
The second eyewitness account Winchester considers is that of the meteorologist Alexander George McAdie.
Professor McAdie was an ambitious and a punctilious man, and at the very moment that he was awakened . . . both his ambition and his scrupulous regard for factual observation . . . came promptly to the fore. As had been his custom ever since he went through the Great Charleston Earthquake of 1886 (“for twenty years I have timed every earthquake I have felt,” he was later to write”), the instant he awoke and felt movement he clicked on his flashlight, noted the time on his fob watch, and recorded in his notebook everything that transpired.
I have lookt up the record in my note-book made on April 18, 1906, while the earthquake was still perceptible. I find the entry “5h 12m” and after that “Severe lasted nearly 40 seconds.” As I now remember it the portion “severe, etc.” was entered immediately after the shaking.
The only snag was that poor Professor McAdie somehow managed to misread his watch during all the confusion, and he wreathed himself in a magnificent maze of complications as he tried to explain the mistake. He wrote that the day before the earthquake,
my error was “1 minute slow” at noon by time-ball, or time signals received in Weather Bureau and which my watch has been compared for a number of years. The rate of my watch is 5 seconds loss per day; therefore the corrected time of my entry is 5h 13m 05s AM. This is not of course the beginning of the quake. I would say perhaps 6 or more seconds may have elapsed between the act of waking, realizing, and looking at the watch and making my entry. I remember distinctly getting the minute-hand’s position, previous to the most violent portion of the shock. The end of the shock I did not get exactly, as I was watching the second-hand, and the end came several seconds before I fully took in that the motion had ceased. The second-hand was somewhere between 40 and 50 when I realized this. I lost the position of the second-hand because of difficulty in keeping my feet, somewhere around the 20-second mark.However, there is one uncertainty. I may have read my watch wrong. I have no reason to think I did; but I know from experience such things are possible. I have the original entries untouched since the time they were made.
The official report accepts that the unfortunate man did effect an error in making what was probably the most critical observation of his career—but, out of courtesy, adds that such a mistake would have been very easy to make. The one-minute error is, then, officially compensated for, and Alexander McAdie enters the lists as having, essentially, timed the Great San Francisco Earthquake as beginning at 5h 12m 05s, recorded that it became extremely severe at 5h 12m 25s, and noted that it tailed off into bearable oblivion at 5h 12m 50s. The whole event, in McAdie’s eyes, extended over little more than forty seconds—about half the time that Davidson had computed, from his observations that were made a little bit closer to town.
One of the other eyewitnesses Winchester cites is Fred Hewitt, a reporter for the San Francisco Examiner.
It was some minutes after five o’clock when he and his two friends crossed Golden Gate Avenue, spent five minutes talking to a pair of policemen—”blue-coated guardians” as he later wrote for his paper—and said their farewells. Hewitt had turned north, the policemen back south down Larkin, when suddenly:
The ground rose and fell like an ocean at ebb tide. Then came the crash . . . I saw those policement enveloped by a shower of falling stone.It is impossible to judge the length of that shock. To me it seemed like an eternity. I was thrown prone on my back and the pavement pulsated like a living thing. Around me the huge buildings, looking more terrible becasue of the queer dance they were performing, wobbled and veered. Crash followed crash and resounded on all sides. . . .The first portion of the shock was just a mild forerunning of what was to follow. The pause in the action of the earth’s surface couldn’t have been more than a fraction of a second. . . . Then came the second and more terrific crash.
Now, in this collection of testimony from three different observers—including two professional scientists, people trained to observe, measure, and record things with uncommon precision—we see discrepancies in the details. Indeed, between the two scientists we see discrepancies in their accounts of the start time and length of the quake which, given the level of precision to which they were trained and which they were attempting, can only be described as significant; and we have another witness who declares, “It is impossible to judge the length of that shock,” and offers another differing account of the quake’s progress. We have here, at the least, “conflicting stories re: the earthquake.”The question is, what can we conclude from these discrepancies? Specifically, can we conclude that the earthquake didn’t happen? Clearly, we can’t; the inference is logically unjustifiable—a point which is made helpfully obvious in this case by the fact that the earthquake is recent enough that we still have lots of other evidence as well which bears witness to it. Even if several hundred or thousand years in the future, it somehow happened that the only record of that earthquake was these three statements, scholars of that future time would in no way be justified in concluding that because of these discrepancies, they could dismiss the San Francisco earthquake of 1906 as ahistorical—and if they insisted on doing so anyway, they would be arguing illogically to reach a false conclusion.What needs to be understood here is that whatever differences there may be in the details of these three reports, they agree on the core facts: some little time past 5am in the cold morning of April 18, 1906, a major earthquake hit San Francisco, California, and their world was shaken, and their lives were never the same again. Whatever they disagree on, they testify to that much with firm unanimity, and so their collective statements in fact provide strong support for the existence and significance of that event.The same may be said of the accounts of Jesus’ resurrection. Even if we grant, for the sake of argument, actual discrepancies and contradictions in the details of the accounts, they agree on the core facts: Jesus died on a Roman cross; his body was sealed in a rock tomb behind a heavy stone door; the following Sunday, the stone was found moved away from the tomb, and the tomb was empty; no one ever produced his body; and in fact, he appeared again alive on various occasions to various of his followers. Whatever they might be said to disagree on, the reports agree that some time that Sunday morning, Jesus was raised from the dead, and their world was shaken, and their lives were never the same again; they testify to that much with firm unanimity, and so their collective statements in fact provide strong support for the existence and significance of that event. To seize on alleged discrepancies as an excuse to conclude otherwise is every bit as logically unjustifiable as it would be to conclude from the eyewitness statements quoted above that there was no earthquake in San Francisco in 1906.The fact is, eyewitness testimony always varies—always. People see different things, perceive things differently, assign different levels of importance to various details, and yes, make mistakes and misremember things, even if they’re doing their best to be accurate. Variance in eyewitness testimony is therefore to be expected. Indeed, if you have a group of eyewitnesses who all tell the exact same story with no variation, that’s a pretty good sign that they’ve gotten together to get their stories straight, and thus that their testimony is probably unreliable in some way. What the differences in the scriptural accounts primarily demonstrate is that there was no collusion between the witnesses—which is, on the whole, a good thing, and speaks more to their basic reliability than the reverse.
why do people who do not believe in the Resurrection spend so much time trying to disprove it…let us remain in our ignorance..we are not hurting anyone..i get the sense that they protest too much…may be it is fear that it is more than a myth, THE myth that became fact…keep up the good fight
You know, in looking at eyewitness accounts, its been found that the more certain someone is, the less accurate their recollections are likely to be 🙂
For me, myth is far more than fact. So the historicity question isn’t much of an issue for me. I’m happy to let others who are far more invested in the discussion have it.
I, for one, absolutely acknowledge the unreliability of the human mind and have read books on the subject. I am particularly interested in how a person can ‘Know’ something and be completely wrong. The mind is a fascinating thing.
I do NOT (and never will) say that all of the weaknesses in the recounting of the resurrection ‘disprove’ it. I merely contend that, when you add up all the questionable points, the credibility of the narrative is significantly undermined.
Let us not forget…a resurrection was foretold…it was SUPPOSED to happen and the followers KNEW it. Stakeholders in the story knew that it would HAVE to end with a resurrection to be credible. They would be highly motivated to incorporate that into their telling. There is scholarship that shows parts of the bible were written specifically to make it appear that prophesies came to pass…when, in fact, they didn’t.
Mason:
No…I don’t have any fear of God or any supernatural judgment. Even if the was a ‘god’ that I had to answer to, I would cut my odds significantly by hanging my hat on a single religion’s version.
As far as death, the Woody Allen quote sums up my position best: “I am not afraid of death, I just don’t want to be there when it happens.”
I wouldn’t spend any time at all in these discussions if I didn’t feel that it wasn’t important to society. Intolerance is endemic to religion. And while it is a minority of believers that would be considered fundamentalists; fundamentalism poses, arguably, the single greatest threat to society today. George W. Bush and Osama Bin Laden are probably the two most motivating characters in the anti-theistic movement.
“.let us remain in our ignorance..we are not hurting anyone.”
If you think that homosexuals displease God, then you are hurting someone. If you think that other faiths displease God, then you are hurting someone. If you want to stop medical research because it displeases God, then you are hurting someone. If you think non-believers displease God, then you are hurting someone. If you think laws should be passed that please your God, then you are hurting someone. If you think disadvantaged teens should be forced to bring a child into a world of dysfunction, addiction, and disability, then you are hurting someone.
FVThinker…
who said that i want to impose my will. i am not interested in using the methods of Caesar (government, laws,etc) to fix the things of this world. i do not have enough time to fix Caesar or anyone else, nor could i. my “calling” is simply to live as Jesus would call me to live. that means that i love and live as Jesus lived and loved. i love those who do and do not love me..do i always succeed? no!! but i continue to try by the grace of God.
i believe sacrifical, self giving love changes things. in fact it is the only thing that ever has. Jesus is our example of that, therefore…any belief that i might have, i am not going to force on anyone, i will simply live, love and point people to a Holy, loving God. He is the final authority, not me. He condemns, no me.
lets take abortion..laws will not prevent it therefore, i will pray for the teenager who is pregnant and offer to adopt their child..(something that i have offered to do on several occasions)..that is love. if you want to stop the war in Iraq or Iran or whereever..then send 10,000 Christian missionaries into those place who’s mission is to live, bleed and die in love for the inhabitants of those lands..that changes things.
do not put me in the same camp as Jerry Falwell. i am not Jerry. i do not believe in the moral majority stuff. i am not here to be a cultural warrior and fight Caesar to get Caesar to fix the world. Caesar has been trying to fix the world for 5,000 years with no success. i am called to point and direct people through self sacrifical giving and living to the one true God and his Son Jesus…how can loving someone sacrifically and giving of yourself hurt someone? it can’t therefore, leave me alone; let me life, love and give and you as an atheist go about your business as well. maybe someday, i will have the pleasure of your company and i will be able to share the love of God, not condemnation. i pray that i would be able to love and give of myself in a way that would help you realize that no one could live and do what i was doing unless there was a God. i will not interfere with your belief system..you are free to live and believe what ever you like…you have freedom, freedom that was bought at a high price. enjoy and live out your freedom and i will do like wise…
I don’t know how often I can say it, but I recognize that few believers have the primitive and septic minds of the Falwells and their ilk…and I don’t say that you subscribe to any of the points that I listed.
That said; a lot of well meaning, ‘liberal’ believers DO subscribe to some or all of the points in my list. With good intentions, they are willing to ‘hurt others’ on very dubious evidence.
It would be the majority of believers that, while they may reach out to homosexuals, still consider it morally wrong. Despite the evidence that homosexuality is naturally occurring. Even in the effort to ‘help’, they stigmatize and demonize. Again; they are willing to hurt on dubious evidence.
On the matter of abortion (since you brought it up), you and I differ [probably] not at all with regards to the loving thing to do when we see a child in a bad situation. I too have offered to take in children in bad environments. My point is that it is better to not put a child INTO the situation than to rescue the child after the fact.
Understand that the physical existence of additional humans is not intrinsically a good thing. The world would not be a better place if it had 12 billion people instead of 6 billion (in fact that would be a horrible place of suffering). I contend that it is infinitely better to not bring unwanted and disadvantaged beings into this world through contraception and early term abortion than to further populate our (already overtaxed) world. …but if you think God would be mad, then that option is not available to you and your belief system works toward further overpopulating the planet.
Let us not forget…a resurrection was foretold…it was SUPPOSED to happen and the followers KNEW it. Stakeholders in the story knew that it would HAVE to end with a resurrection to be credible. They would be highly motivated to incorporate that into their telling.
Actually, no one saw it coming, and no one expected it. Your assertion is simply ahistorical.
I wouldn’t spend any time at all in these discussions if I didn’t feel that it wasn’t important to society. Intolerance is endemic to religion.
The irony in that statement is truly breathtaking. Apparently you’re a firm believer that it’s fine to fight intolerance with intolerance.
Doug, speaking as an historian, I can’t agree with the position of your second paragraph, but there’s certainly some truth to your first paragraph.
Mason, be welcome. 🙂
This was the first thing the popped up on when Googling:
“Psalm 16:10-11: because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.”
I only rail against bad arguments. I acknowledge that it is characteristic of the human animal to create gods.
“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” — Thomas Jefferson
So you think a misinterpreted and misapplied Scripture proves what, exactly? The ancient Hebrews did know all about metaphorical language, after all; why on earth would they have been so crude as to take an obviously metaphorical psalm and interpret it concretely? There are also plenty of passages in the Psalms to the effect that “I’ll praise you before I go down to She’ol, because the dead don’t praise you,” after all. Resurrection in the Jewish mindset (for those who believed in it at all) was, apart from the rare few newly dead who were raised by one or another of the prophets, not a literal concept. (I believe it’s Jon D. Levenson who’s done the best work on that.)
The fact of the matter is, whatever you think they should have expected, the Jews of Jesus’ day didn’t expect a resurrected Messiah, because they didn’t expect the Messiah to die (except, perhaps, of extreme old age after a long and successful reign in which he restored Israel as a geopolitical power).
In case you’re interested in what that psalm is actually about, btw, here’s a representative commentator, the late Peter C. Craigie:
In the concluding portion of the psalm (vv 9c–11), the psalmist expresses assurance both that he was delivered from the immediate threat of death and that he was restored to a full life in God’s presence. With respect to the initial meaning of the psalm, it is probable that this concluding section should not be interpreted either messianically or in terms of individual eschatology; on the later Christian interpretation along these lines, see the Explanation (below). The acute concern of the psalmist was an immediate crisis and an immediate deliverance. His body had been endangered and his life threatened with untimely termination in Sheol: on Sheol see the discussion at Ps 6:5 (Comment). The word Pit is poetically synonymous to Sheol. But emerging confidently from that crisis of mortality, the psalmist acknowledges that God makes him know, or experience, the “path of life,” not the afterlife, but the fullness of life here and now which is enriched by the rejoicing which emerges from an awareness of the divine presence.
Oops, inadvertently deleted the bibliographical information on the Craigie citation:
Craigie, P. C. (2002). Vol. 19: Word Biblical Commentary : Psalms 1-50. Word Biblical Commentary (158). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.
What ISN’T misinterpreted and misapplied from the bible?!?! 🙂
The relevant point here is your misinterpretation and misapplication; as such, your last comment is a pure non sequitur.
Some say that bit from Psalms is prophecy, some do not. Demonstrate that you are correct and they are wrong.
The question isn’t whether that psalm is prophecy, it’s whether it was interpreted at the time (or at any time in the pre-Christian era) as a prophecy that God would resurrect the Messiah. As Craigie notes, it wasn’t; that understanding of those verses only came along with the rise of Christianity.